The Wellness Esquire Podcast

How to Build a Multi-Million Dollar Practice While Maintaining Boundaries - with Heather Moulder

• Ariella Cohen Coleman • Season 1 • Episode 26

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 1:02:42

What does it take to walk away from a multi-million dollar law practice - and build something even better? In this episode, Ariella Coleman sits down with Heather Moulder, a former finance attorney turned lawyer wellbeing coach, to talk about the pivotal moments that forced Heather to reimagine her career, her identity, and her life.

Heather shares her journey from a miserable associate at a hierarchical Texas law firm, to building a thriving book of business as a partner, to facing a stage-threatening breast cancer diagnosis at age 38 - and how each of those experiences planted seeds for a completely different way of practicing law and living life.

If you're a lawyer who suspects there's a better way but can't quite see the path, this conversation will help you find it.


About the guest: 

Heather Moulder is a former big law finance partner who built and led a multi-million dollar practice before leaving to become a lawyer wellbeing and business development coach. She is the founder of Course Correction Coaching and host of her own podcast. She works with lawyers to clarify their values, build boundaries, develop authentic business development strategies, and create careers and lives that actually feel good - without sacrificing professional excellence.


Resources Mentioned:


We'd love to hear from you through Fan Mail!

Host Info: Ariella Cohen Coleman

The Wellness Esquire: Creating a bold new path where wellbeing, happiness, and authenticity drive performance and success https://thewellnessesquire.com

Ariella Law, PC provides strategic legal support - from formation, contracts, and compliance to fractional general counsel - through project-based services and monthly subscriptions for entrepreneurs, growing companies, and mission-driven organizations. https://ariellaw.com/

Follow Ariella:

 Connect & Explore:


Support & Sponsors

Zirtual helped Ariella find an amazing paralegal a...

SPEAKER_00

Welcome to the Wellness Esquire podcast. I'm Ariella, and I'm super excited for you to hear this conversation with my friend Heather Mulder. Heather is a former finance lawyer who built a multi-million dollar practice before transitioning into her current work as a coach and consultant. She now helps other lawyers grow their own successful practices in a way that actually feels good. We talked about how miserable she was for the first five years of her career and how a comment from her husband that at the time really pissed her off ultimately helped her figure out how to build the kind of life and career she actually wanted. We talked about how she guarded her boundaries and her values at a firm that stood by her when she was diagnosed with late-stage breast cancer, which she beat against all odds. And we talked about why she decided to step away from the law to help other lawyers build successful careers that fit into their lives the way they want, like she had. We talk about how business development is different for everyone, how even introverts can use LinkedIn to build a book of business, and how showing colleagues and clients who you truly are can be the key to building the kind of practice that you actually want. This conversation was fantastic. And I'm gonna be honest, I really did not feel good while we were having it. And I think that that not feeling goodness resulted in me sounding a little awkward at the beginning before I found my flow. And I share this because I had considered rescheduling, but I didn't want to. We had already rescheduled and we were both so eager to have this conversation, so I decided to go for it. I went back to my former, I'm just gonna push through it, mode. And then after a really wonderful conversation, I crashed. And then the following week, which happens to be today, I was set to record an episode to be on Heather's podcast, and she contacted me about rescheduling right before we were set to start because she wasn't feeling well. And of course, I said, Oh my god, of course, we'll do this another another time. No biggie. And as many of you may already know, either because you've been a guest on the podcast or you've heard me talk about this or seen me post about it before, I'm super pro-rescheduling. I'm so pro-rescheduling. We have got to accept rescheduling as being okay. I've started to proactively tell all of my guests, you are welcome to reschedule as many times as you need, including super duper last minute. I don't care. Everything cannot be a priority by definition. And we so often twist ourselves into unnecessary knots to accommodate other people and things and to make things happen on a timeline that isn't good for us and has been often arbitrarily set and just really does not matter. I'm so aware of how important it is to prioritize our own well-being, but being aware doesn't mean I do it all the time. And that's a big part of why I created the wellness esquire. It's because I need it too. And when I don't prioritize my well-being, I'm pretty quickly reminded of why it's important, and then I adjust accordingly. So take this as your reminder that you get to put yourself first, you get to reschedule, and you get to say no. Now, back to the episode. I know you're going to love this conversation with Heather. Thank you so much for listening. Remember to rate and subscribe, please, and enjoy.

SPEAKER_03

How are you today? I am good. I've got uh two cats who are getting teeth extractions and cleanings today. It's not fun. Oh yeah, no. They're young too, but they have some weird virus that like attacks your teeth, attacks the cat's teeth, and probably in a year or two, all of them are gonna get removed. Uh, because that's the only fix. And it's painful. I'm like, oh. So yeah, this morning we got to give them drugs, and one of them we call little ball of knives. Um he was a little ball of knives this morning. He cut, he I got a lovely and getting drugs down him. Oh my gosh, it was hard. A bit of a feat. Yeah, we had to like wrap him hard in a towel and like get it in him, and he's screaming like we were killing him, and it was just sad. And yeah, so that was my day, but other than that, it's all great. I I get to go pick them up later.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. So well, I'm I'm delighted that your house showing or whatever got um, you know what?

SPEAKER_03

We decided it wasn't gonna be worth it, and I was like, I really don't want to do this if we don't, if it's not gonna bring anything. There's like no market right now, by the way. Like nobody's looking. No, we've had two open houses, we've had a couple people in each one, but that's it. Um, we're hearing that there's houses on the market for the last month, month and a half that have haven't had a showing at all. We've had one. Um I mean, it it's when world events are what they are right now, people tend to shut down and not make big purchases. So I kind of expect by summer sometime it'll start picking back up, but we'll see. I mean, it is what it is. We don't we don't have a big mortgage on this house, and it's a huge house. And our backup plan has always been we'll rent, yeah. Um, and we'll make money off of it if we rent, although I don't want to be a landlord if I don't have to be a landlord. So, like we'll be fine, but you know, it is what it is.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

In a perfect world, honestly, the house would start picking up about six weeks before we want to move, giving us the exact timing we want for not having to move twice.

SPEAKER_00

So maybe it'll work out. Do you have somewhere you want to move?

SPEAKER_03

Oh, yeah. We have a house that we purchased and we're remodeling. Ah so perhaps this is not like we're not in a big hurry to leave our house.

SPEAKER_00

So all right, okay. So you can figure out how to make the whole thing work. Yeah, yeah. So but thank you for asking.

unknown

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, so we've got lots to talk about. And uh fortunately, if we don't get through everything today, we've got another conversation next week and we will Yeah, but it has to like, you know, standalone too. So a little bit too. Um so I first I want to talk about what led you to law school in the first place, and then we'll get into your whole uh feel of what you do now. Okay, sure. Okay. Tell me everything.

SPEAKER_02

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_03

So I am one of those really weird, weird lawyers or ex-lawyers at now, uh, who actually wanted to be a lawyer from a very young age. Um, I think I was 11 when I decided I wanted to go to law school. And what that meant. Yes. So my mom um was nobody in my family were lawyers, but my mom dated a lawyer. And so I had an idea of what it was. And he was actually in law school, but I knew a lot about the law and and such from him, and he let me go with him to attend a few classes because he was in night school. And I found it really interesting. And also at that time, there was, and you're too young to probably know this or remember this, but there was this show. It was preceded by a movie called The Paper Chase, and it was about two guys in law school with this horrible, I think he was a con law professor who was very, very difficult, right? The epitome of the difficult law school professor. And it was a big hit movie and then a hit show. And I got into it very young. It's weird. I was a weird kid. I was very geeky. But um, that is originally what convinced me that I wanted to be a lawyer. I also, of course, love to argue, love to negotiate, loved all the things that we lawyers do. And so people would tell me I was meant to be a lawyer. And I was a book smart kid who studied all the time and all of the things. So that's really what convinced me I wanted to go to law school. And then I went to law school, and I'm also one of those weird people who actually enjoyed it. I loved law school.

SPEAKER_00

I also enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, okay, good.

SPEAKER_00

Because like I like debating and thinking, and we're all, you know, a version of a weirdo. We find each other.

SPEAKER_03

I know that is true. So yeah, so that's that's how I became a lawyer. And I was I am the only lawyer in my family. I was the first and and the only. Nobody else seemed to want it.

SPEAKER_00

All right. So you go to law school. While you're in law school, what were you thinking you wanted to do with the rest with your career?

SPEAKER_03

So originally I thought I wanted to litigate. And I very quickly realized that was not for me personality-wise, that I am a need to work hard towards a common goal kind of girl. And although I kept being told I'd be a good litigator, I knew that would be a very bad path for my my personality and ultimately my happiness. No way. I couldn't, I couldn't do the gamesmanship. I didn't want to fight all the time. It makes my stomach nod up and hurt. That would happen when I was on deals. I was a deal lawyer, uh, finance lawyer. I would feel like that if I was on deals that went quite crosswise too much. And so I did learn very quickly that okay, no, litigation's not for you. It's interesting. It might be fun to do a case or two, but over the course of your career, you would not like this. So I was an economics major. I love finance and economics and all of that. And so the transactional stuff was really where I kind of went. And one of the first firm that I clerked at was um a big quote unquote firm in Texas. So I'm in Texas, grew up in Texas, work in Texas, pretty much been here my whole life. And Texas law firms were the thing back when I went to law school. None of the national or international firms had come into Texas. So this was one of the pre-eminent firms that um were in Texas and they had this really great finance section. And they wanted me because of my background to um not, you know, they kept wooing me over, you know, you don't want to do just corporate, you want to do finance. And so that's ultimately I was wanted. I knew I could utilize my background a little bit more. I I understood the business side more than most lawyers tend to, because a lot of us lawyers, you know, get the poly psy degree or English or history or something, and they're not being on the bat business background. And frankly, most people can learn it. We're we're smart people, but they feel intimidated by it, and I wasn't. So ultimately, that's the section I chose to go into, and that is the that's what led me down the path of my my long-term career.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, so you you practiced for a while, you knew what you were doing, you built a multi-million dollar practice, and uh then you decided to stop. I did. What uh what was your uh career like while you were practicing? How did it feel for you? And then what ultimately led you to decide to get to stop practicing and do what you do now, which is helping other lawyers build their own practices and doing it in a way that feels good.

SPEAKER_03

So I had like I guess three main stages of my career. And there were many stages along the way, but I could really parse them into three stages. The first was the first four and a half, five years. I was miserable. And ultimately, part of it was because I was in the wrong fit law firm for me. It was a it was very hierarchical, it was very traditional. You had to get, you know, approval for everything. Freedom is one of my values. It did not sync up very well with me. Great people, great firm. Probably I wouldn't go back now if I could and change it because I learned a lot there. And it's ultimately what got me where I ended up. But it wasn't a great fit. The other thing, though, was I was also the typical young, at least back then, lawyer who had zero boundaries, said yes to everything, and thought that was how to succeed. And I was miserable as a result. And so I was about four years in. There was this very specific time. I was driving home. It was Christmas time. Christmas time, by the way, for finance lawyers, is by far the busiest worst time ever because everything has to close year-end. So it's not a very fun time for us finance lawyers. And the most wonderful time of the year started playing in the background and all the twinkling lights, and I just burst into tears. And it was late, right? It was very dark. And I come home and my husband is home, and I just start like spewing out all my complaints as per usual. And he kind of just stopped and poor guy had had it. I'm sure it was the hundredth or more time I'd done it that year, probably it had done it a hundred times the year before. And he just looked at me and was like, Heather, you have a choice. And it didn't, I mean, of course we fought. Of course, I did not go to bed happy that night, but it it hit a nerve. And I I woke up the next day kind of like, yeah, he's right. I have to figure something out here. And so you're laughing. That I mean, it's true, it's never fun.

SPEAKER_00

I'm laughing because just the way you said what your husband said, which was that you have a choice. Um, and I think so many of us, it's so easy to just get stuck on autopilot and just to get stuck on the path that you started on, whether you even meant to or not, and to not even realize how much everything is a decision.

SPEAKER_03

Doesn't mean it's easy, just because you have a choice doesn't mean you just if it were easy, I don't think it'd be called a decision. That's my point. That is fair.

SPEAKER_00

I accept that.

SPEAKER_03

Right? I mean, it's if it's a real choice, a real decision, it's not gonna be oh, that's the obvious answer. You don't feel like it's a choice. It's like, oh, well, that's obvious. Why would I not do that? So yeah, I you're right. And he was right. And that is that was kind of the impetus for me to starting to figure out, okay, what else could I do? And I thought about do I want to go in-house? Do I want to quit law? Do I mean all these things, which was really hard having thought I wanted to be a lawyer since the age of 11. And ultimately I decided, no, I actually do want to practice law. And I think I want to practice law in a law firm. I'm just not in the right fit firm. And frankly, I probably need a change because this is my fault. I started to realize over the course of the next year, and it took me a while. I I was I did not leave immediately. It took over a year, FYI. I think people think that we had these epiphanies, and then boom, the change happens, and that's not really true. Now, what's funny is I started feeling better because I knew I wasn't gonna stay there, and I was starting to take action to figure out well, what's my next step? So I realized though, that there were actually quite happy lawyers around. Not a majority, sadly, but they were very happy lawyers, and there were differentiations in how they practiced from everybody else. They were very clear about what their boundaries were. They actually had boundaries with clients, not just with colleagues in at their firm. And that's a big one that a lot of lawyers are not good at. They were very particular about clients they would say yes to and clients they would even fire sometimes because they wouldn't uphold their values or they weren't aligned with what they really liked, you know, uh, as a human. They weren't personality fits, they weren't values fits, they weren't, you know. And so I realized, okay, I need to change that. That's what I need to change, and that's internal. But I've created kind of the monster here, these expectations. And I don't think this is the right firm for me anyway. So I need to move on. So that took a while. And then I was very picky when I was looking around. And ultimately I found, funny enough, one of the first big law law firms that came into Texas offered uh me a position and I and I moved there. And it's hilarious because everybody assumes big law is the big, bad, horrible thing. At least a lot of people do. And that was by far the best step I could ever have taken. But it was a big law firm that was a little different than a lot of other law firms, at least at the time. They were seriously more entrepreneurial. A lot of firms claim to be. They really were, at least at the time. I don't know if they still are, uh, because I haven't been there in a while now, but they really were. They let you kind of figure out what you wanted to do, build your own practice. There weren't as many rules, it wasn't so hierarchical, and they really just left you alone as long as you acted like an adult. And so that is where well, yeah, you're laughing at that too. Yeah, if you if you did something stupid, they called you out and you were in trouble, but otherwise they didn't.

SPEAKER_00

Also, the way that you actually learn, it's by being treated as an adult because by the way, you are one and getting the opportunity to do the job and then figure out what you actually need help with. Yes, as opposed to being babysat all the time and so scared to do anything without supervision and help because you're so terrified of making a mistake.

SPEAKER_03

Yes. So I basically went there as a senior associate. I practiced for a number of years. I had my first child while I was there. And then before I had my second child, I was promoted a partner there. And I was actually the first associate made partner in the Dallas office because it was a relatively new office. They had just opened, I think maybe five or six months before I started there. And it it turned out to be a really good place for me because I was able to build, start building my book even as an associate. Now I didn't have a big book. I mean, no associate. It's hard, it's hard when you don't have a partner next to your name to actually build a book, but I was able to get a little bit of something which helped prove my case for partnership. And everything seemed like it was great and wonderful. And so this was the second phase, by the way. I moved over, I was happy, I loved my practice. I was able to start building the practice I wanted. Um, I will note that I was promoted to partnership at the beginning of 2008. And I don't know if you remember what 2008 was as a finance attorney, really not a good year. Really not a good year. So the book of business, the small little book of business I had was gone by the end of the year. None of those people ever came back into business, by the way, or even got into positions where they could be clients. And 2009, I was sitting, I was looking at my numbers and like, okay, I got to figure something out here. And so I pivoted a little bit. I pivoted into a new finance area that um seems like it would be a little bit easier to build a book. And it was. And so things kind of took off, they grew from there. And the next thing I know, I have a million-dollar book of business and the life seems great. I've had a child, a second child, all was wonderful in the world. And then I was diagnosed with breast cancer. And I was, let's see, 38 at the time of diagnosis, and my kids were six and two. And that is not something you expect at that point in your life. I mean, I don't know that anybody ever expects it, but you really don't expect it then. And I found out that I have one of the BRECA genes, I'm BRECA2 positive. Um, and that's why, and I was the first person, the first probably woman in a long time with the genetic mutation. So, like men carry it too, and they are the ones that you occasionally hear get breast cancer, and there are some other cancers you that can get um or have a higher propensity for getting, but breast cancer is the big one. And we didn't realize that my dad had that had the gene, his father had the gene, and it was handed down that way. So that was kind of like the big that that that that flew me into the third phase, which is you know, at first you're just fighting cancer and you're trying to figure out what am I gonna live? My prognosis, by the way, was not good. Um I thankfully found it very early. And but we didn't know it at the time. Um how much do you know about breast cancer and what they look at when they they diagnose you?

SPEAKER_00

I know a little bit. I have um known people, you know, I I think it's actually just worth noting for anyone who's listening uh that you can get it at any age. And I I actually have a law school uh friend whose sister was diagnosed very late stage at uh 29, I believe, and had actually gone to the doctor with a concern around a lump and was dismissed because you know, oh no, no, you're so you're so young, it's you know, don't worry about it. And whoa, she died. That's not good. So get yourself checked. Yeah, no, I mean I and your doctor doesn't listen to you, find a new doctor.

SPEAKER_03

I'm big on self checking because you know what's normal and what's not, and then you have to advocate for yourself. I was very lucky to have a doctor who very quickly, very quickly pushed me through the system. So mine was really fast. I um why don't you share a bit?

SPEAKER_00

Because I I I only know a little bit, and I'm sure lots of people don't know as much as they either think they do, they know. So share what you would like to.

SPEAKER_03

I was super lucky in the way I found it. I did not self-check regularly. I did not think I had to at that age. I thought, ah, 10 years, 15 years from now, then I'll worry about it, right? Um, I did all my annual stuff. I did, you know, I did all the stuff that we're supposed to do. And I was probably about halfway through where I would have my regular annual checkup. So there was no reason to go in other than for a problem. And I don't know if you remember the video game, the Connect video game years ago. It's one of the, it's it was like the Wii, a little bit different, but you moved around a lot. And my six-year-old got the Connect from Santa that year. And we were playing it, and he was terrible about moving around so much. And he's jumping and doing all these things, and he bumped me, and more than bumped me, right on my left breast where the tumor happened to be, by the way, with his elbow. And I did not find out that day, but um, a couple of days later, I was in the bath and like, oh, it was really bruised. Does it still hurt? And that's how I felt it. And it was very hard, and it was something that was not there days before that I could feel. It was weird. It was like, one day it's not there, and then a couple days it's there, but something very hard. So I called my doctor. They got me in the next day, and I very clearly remember she was like, she felt it, and she's like, hmm, well, Heather, if I know you, you're gonna want to make sure this is nothing. I could tell she she thought. Um, and then looking back, I know why she did this. She was trying to like, let's not freak her out too much. She's like, but given that in your schedule, I'm gonna send you across the street now to go get a mammogram. And I'm like, okay. And I also want to get a saunogram. Okay. So I did those two things and they came in um 45 minutes later and said, well, we need to biopsy to see if there's anything there. And we can't do that today. It was a Thursday. No, a Friday. No, Thursday. Okay, it was a Thursday. The next Monday was Presidence Day. Is President's Day in January? I remember whatever the Monday holiday is in January. It was the next Monday. So they couldn't get me in then, so it was the next Tuesday. So schedule me for Tuesday. Went in for that. That guy was the most like cold person I've ever like. He's just like in out. All right, it's usually four to seven business days, you'll hear something. Walked out the door. Okay, then. So that was a Tuesday. Thursday morning, I woke up knowing, knowing I was gonna find out, which is way before I was supposed to, but I just knew. And I remember every time my phone rang or a text came through, I was looking at it. And about two o'clock that day, my phone, my phone did ring and it was my OBGYN. And first thing she said is okay, Heather, you need to sit down. You have breast cancer. And I only know this because the radiologist called me because what she saw was so concerning. I have gone ahead and called my favorite oncologist to see when they can. One can't get you in for 10 days, but one can get you in Monday. I'm not gonna tell you what to do, but if it were me, I would go Monday. And I was like, well, yeah, I'm gonna go Monday. And she's like, and in the meantime, take today to hand off all your work because I can guarantee you're getting chemo and probably operations. Um, tomorrow I'm scheduling a CT scan for you. Okay then. And so come to find out over the next 24 hours, my doctors were freaking out because they, when they test, at least back then, when they tested breast cancer, there were three things they did. And it's called the Nottingham score. And it's basically like how aggressive, how fast growing is it? How abnormal does it look from a regular cell, and what did the like the exterior look like? And they can grade it from a one to a three. So you can have anywhere from a three to a nine. The higher of a number, the worse it is, and the worse the prognosis because of that. I was a nine, and apparently that's rare. So they were all freaking out. And, you know, I saw the oncologist the next Monday, that that was the surgical oncologist. She got me into the medical oncologist Tuesday. I found out word that I got into a trial on Wednesday. I had my sentinel port, my port placed here Friday and began treatment the next Monday. And I had triple negative breast cancer, which basically means there's a bunch of, there's three different hormones they test for to see if you're positive for them. If you're negative for all three, you're triple negative. And it tends to be a more aggressive type. Chemo does work pretty well, but there are no other drug options. Although there was a drug I got into a trial on, and it did seem to really help me. Sadly, it only helped a very small percentage of people, so it was never approved. But I think it saved my life because we saw very quick results from that. So and I handed everything off. I did not work for like nine, 10 months at all. I handed my clients over to other people. I took that day and a half I had very seriously, and I just handed everything over and really focused in on my kids and you know, um, being healthy and trying to get better and making sure, you know, I did everything I possibly could to to put myself in the best position to fight it. So wow. Okay. Yes, that tends to change a person's perception.

SPEAKER_00

Well, first I want to ask that that day when you when your doctor called and said you should take today to hand off your work, how what impact, if any, did that have on your identity? And I asked because so many of us were, well, I'm an attorney and this is who I am, this is what I do. And you know, when you're told you really, you know, you're gonna have to take a pause from having that be part of your identity right now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So it wasn't it it was a huge shift for me that day, and it was a result of that conversation. But the shift was because so it's really interesting to me, having been in that place, when you're basically being told um you have something that could kill you, and we're actually concerned it is gonna kill you. So, like, chop, chop, get moving. Um you don't think about the same things you think. You know, you you don't worry about the things you've been worrying about, all that stuff goes out the window. And I had about a 20-minute period where I sat down and I remembered my grandfather's funeral. My grandfather was a great man. People, he made an impact on people's lives and they remembered him for it. And I remember his funeral going as um, I was in law school ending law school when he passed. We were brought into this room and we had no idea how many people were there while we were in this room. And then when it was about to get started, we walked out and it was like standing room only in one of the biggest churches that existed at the time in Houston. And it was like, whoa. And then the number of people that came to us who spoke of him in ways I hadn't known him, because I had known him as my grandfather, right? And I thought, you know, what are people gonna say about me if I die? Good mom, good lawyer, nice person, but that's pretty much it, right? That bothered me. It bothered me a lot. And I realized, you know, all these things I was worrying about, all the deals I was worrying about closing, and am I gonna have enough business this year? And all these things, they don't really matter at the end of the day. So my identity started shifting then, and I didn't know it, but it did. So it's not that I lost something, I actually gained a different perspective around what my identity was and needed to be moving forward.

SPEAKER_00

I can relate to that so much. Okay, so you hand off all your work, you start going through treatment. How was that? And then what yeah, let's start with that. How was that?

SPEAKER_03

I mean, it sucked. It wasn't fun. I did not like treatment. Um, I did not like feeling bad. I really hated. So I'm the oldest of my family. I am the one everybody went to for advice. I am the one that, you know, did everything for people. And that's how I saw myself. And that was a piece of my identity, more than being a lawyer. And suddenly I was the patient who needed to be cared for and was needy. And that bothered me to no end for a long time. And I finally made peace with it towards the end of my treatment, actually. Um, there was this day where I would I got up out of bed and I was super woozy and I didn't feel good, but I had to go to the bathroom and I walked into the into the bath, and then we have a separate room with the toilet, and my husband looked at me and was like, Are you okay? And I'm like, fine, right? And I walk in there and I shut the door and I like crumpled, I like fainted. Like banging on the door and like, what is wrong with you? And it really, I was like, dude, I gotta start asking for help and letting people know how I really am because this isn't working, like this is just not working, and I could have really hurt myself if I'd, you know, I'm just lucky I didn't. Yeah. So I learned I I feel like that journey for me was a lesson from God on Heather, you're a human being like everybody else. And part of being resilient, this is a big lesson for me, means allowing yourself to admit to your, you know, when you're weak, when you need help, when you're needy, and accepting it. And that actually does make you stronger. So it was a really big lesson for me that was kind of another seed plant. And there's several seeds. The first was my identity shift and thinking, wait, I'm not who I think I want to be here. And then this of the resilience piece and what does that mean, and how can I utilize it moving forward for others? Those were two big pieces that I think aided in my future changes, uh, which did not come quickly. But, you know, they just kind of the lessons kept piling up along the way.

SPEAKER_00

So I just want to note that when I'm laughing at you, or even around like your story of, you know, and then I went into the bathroom and fainted. It's because of how much I can relate.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, yeah. I'm sure people are out there going, oh my god, that would be me too, or that is me.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. All right. So the the treatments, it seems they they were successful. They were. What anybody expected. Amazing. When did you decide to go back to work and what was small?

SPEAKER_03

So I um I think my last treatment, I was like six and a half months of treatments, and then I had a month off, and then I had surgeries. After my last surgery, I wanted a couple months, and then I decided I'd go back. And my firm was awesome. They basically said just come back however you can. And so I came back part-time, really almost for a year. Um, and and we didn't call it part-time, but I really like the first six months back, I about 2, 2:30, I would be like, my body is shutting down. Like, I can't function anymore. I gotta go home.

SPEAKER_00

Um, so I'd come in and I'd work until about then, and then I'd come home and I'd nap, and then I might get up and like respond to email, but I didn't do much with the needed to push through at all, or were you did that identity shift it just allowed you to do what you could? It did.

SPEAKER_03

It did. And you know, I realized that A, I had help. I had other lawyers who could do more. Um, and I got that help and relied on them for that. B, people understood if I said, look, I'm not gonna be available from three to seven. Like, I just can't. But I can talk to you tomorrow morning, or if I need to get on a call at 7:30 for 30 minutes, that's fine too. Like, I won't do the work, but I could get on the call and figure out what's going on and have somebody else do it, or I'll do it tomorrow. But you like it, nothing was an emergency. I was, it wasn't a life or death. It was, you know, and I had already had pretty good boundaries, but it was yet another lesson on be real with people, set your boundaries, make sure they understand why. And yes, did still sometimes emergencies come up, uh-huh. And I would either have to find somebody to do it or find a way to, you know, usually it was getting somebody else to do it at that time because I just couldn't. So I I definitely learned to delegate more and and to rely on others more, and and learned that you can actually trust other people and how to do that and how also to train or to have processes and systems around how you delegate and what you're telling people and how they learn what the client really wants. And like there's ways you can deal with that. Well, this forced me to to get even better at it, which was a good thing, honestly.

SPEAKER_00

So okay, so what how long did you practice then before you decided oh gosh that you okay? I gotta do that. Or you don't have to figure out the time frame, but what what led you to decide? I think I practiced for another five years after I got back.

SPEAKER_03

And then uh it was a couple of years in afterwards, so I I kept practicing, I grew my my business even bigger, everything seemed great, but something fell off. Like it just didn't feel right. And there was this moment where I was washing the dishes and I felt like I was looking at myself from above. And this person looked like me, she sounded like me, she talked like me, she moved like me, but she no longer felt like me. And I think this is something that I've talked to people who felt like this after COVID. When major things happen in life and there's a shift, you work like crazy to go back, go back to normal. The problem is that experience changes you in some way, shape, or form. And then until you figure out how it changes you and what changes you want to make to yourself and your life and what you're doing, until you do that, you're not gonna feel right. And I went through this time of what does this mean? I don't know what this means. So it was probably two and a half years after I got back where I finally got to that point and finally said, okay, I got to figure this out. And I mean, I looked into do I want to be a health coach? Do I want to go in-house? Do I just not want to work? Do I like what do I what does all this mean? And in that process, I knew a coach who said, you know, Heather, you should look into coaching. You'd probably be good at it. And I'm like, okay, I'll look. I don't know. Uh back then, even then, coaching wasn't a big thing in in law firms. It's really only become a bigger thing in the last four or five years. And it seemed interesting. And so I decided to go get the training. And and because you know, we lawyers think we have to be trained at everything. Um, and it did help me because, you know, as a lawyer, we want to solve everybody's problems, and that's not really what coaching is. Yeah. Not pure coaching. I had to learn not to need to solve somebody else's problems, but instead explore, let people know what I was hearing, try to help, you know. Uh, I'm not a pure coach anymore, FYI. I do some form of coaching and consulting now. That's what people hire me for. But I had to learn that, and it was really good for me. And it was also an interesting process of self-discovery. It forces you to learn a lot more about yourself and become more aware. And over time, I realized, okay, I want to do this coaching thing, I think. And I, after halfway through the training, I remember talking to my husband and saying, I want to do this. I don't, I don't want to practice anymore. And we made a plan. And that plan was two years and like it was two more years before I left because we wanted to be financially secure. And again, this is another example of I knew I wasn't in the right place for the long term, but I was actually feeling pretty good because I was doing the things I know I wanted and needed to do to move to whatever that next step was.

SPEAKER_00

So you've got this two-ish year plan.

unknown

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00

And then you start doing what feels better, and you take your years of experience of figuring out how to build a practice that fits into your life that you want, and it's value aligned, and you've got all these boundaries, and then you add more boundaries. So now you work with lawyers to help them kind of create their version of what you had for yourself.

SPEAKER_03

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

And it looks different for everybody because we are all different and we are looking for different things. Success means something different for all of us. How do you what's your process for working with lawyers to help them even just understand how to start thinking about their own values and what they want and what they want their life to look like and what they want their career to look like and how it fits into their life, and how to start setting those boundaries and building really what they did may not have even known was possible for them.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, the first thing is if they're not clear on what their values are, we work on that. Um you you really can't do all the other stuff. Values, understanding what your values are and what they mean to you gives you permission and it gives you a little bit more permission internally, not from other people, from yourself. Because we lawyers need to give ourselves permission for this to build boundaries, to let go of not caring about what everybody thinks of us, to like all of the mind stuff that goes on. Not to say it gets rid of all of the worries, the fears, the doubts, the like what if, but it helps tamper that down enough where we're, you know what, I'm gonna do it anyway. Because I know this is aligned with who I really want to be and how I want to show up in the world. So for those who aren't clear on their values, we often do values work up front. And I have a forum and I have, you know, just ways for them to do that. But I, you know, most people we don't sit down and think about it carefully enough and thoughtfully enough. And the bigger thing is we don't give ourselves the space, the pause, the just, I need some space to think about this and get it out. And that's where I think coaching can really help some, especially lawyers, people who are very driven and busy because we fill up our calendar so much where it gives you that space of that hour to just like, I don't have to think about anything else. And I can kind of like let my mind roam and kind of figure this stuff out. So I find that that's one of the biggest issues for most of us is we just don't, we're too busy. We're too driven, we're too, you know, and we think for whatever reason, I guess society's told us this and we've convinced ourselves of this, that if we're not constantly busy and scheduled and doing something quote unquote productive, that we're not worthy. And part of this work is shifting into changing what success means, changing what productivity and effectiveness effectiveness actually means. Because I think we have warped definitions for that. So when you grind, you ground into your values and you understand them better, it helps you to change those other things. Because all of that has to change for your mindset to change enough to be able to implement the boundaries, to be able to go, you know what, it still bothers me that they might think less of me because this is what I've chosen, but I'm still gonna choose it because I know that's what's right. And I can handle that feeling of discomfort I have that they don't approve.

SPEAKER_00

What do you think a lot of us don't understand about business development?

SPEAKER_03

Ooh. Um, I think there's a big disconnect over what a sale, what selling is versus I think we think it's that used cars salesman trying to be schmoozy, and we also, many of us lawyers are more introverted, and we assume that you have to be incredibly extroverted to sell and to market and to do all the things that you know are encompassed by BD, but that's just not true. Business development is really just about being a human being and connecting with other human beings and building relationships. I think another thing that we all assume is that we have to bring in every bit of business that could come our way or does come our way that we could do. And I think that is one of the biggest reasons so many lawyers are unhappy and stressed and overwhelmed, and because they take in the wrong clients. They take in, they go into an industry that's not a fit for their personality or their strengths. They take on clients that are really bad fits for their own personality. There's other lawyers who can do that work out there. You don't have to do it. And guess what? When you actually get out there as yourself, you're gonna attract more of the right fit people. Like there are people out there who will be attracted to you. And it's just a lot of it's easier than you think. Now it doesn't mean it's not hard work. Like it takes work, it takes time, it takes consistency, but it is easier than I think we think sometimes.

SPEAKER_00

I want to talk about using LinkedIn to get fitness. And I more specifically, I want to talk about um how to say this. All right. You and I connected initially on LinkedIn because I saw a post of yours that I loved where I think you were I think you were talking about like just kind of being bored of the way that many of us were. Yeah. And and you you noted some of the things that you want to be talking about and want to be talking about with other people on LinkedIn. And one of those things that you noted was you wanted to talk about what the hell's going on with anti-Semitism. Yep. And I talk a lot about that. And when I saw your post, I I I think I assumed that you were Jewish because most people who are talking about antisemitism are. And even Jews who are talking about it are often really nervous to talk about it on LinkedIn and publicly because of their concern about how it might impact their career. I've had people say to me, you know, or ask me, you know, you're so vocal about, you know, Jew hate and and what's going, you know, what's going on with Israel on the anti-anti-Semitism. How has it impacted your career? And my answer is always, well, I actually don't think I would have had the confidence to build my law firm or to start my law firm had I not been so vocal, because all these people are like, I want a lawyer who shares my values, so I want her.

SPEAKER_03

Perfect example of it, yes.

SPEAKER_00

So, but a lot of people are whether whether they're talking about something like that or or or not, people are really scared to put themselves out there and just say, hi, this is me. I'm a person. I also happen to practice law.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, did you see my post this week too?

SPEAKER_00

No. People are most people would be surprised to know how little I look at LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_03

I'm not actually on it as much as people assume either. Um, I am on it every day for about 30 minutes just because I need to be for the algorithm so that my stuff, but I only post about once a week, sometimes twice a week nowadays. Um, so I'm not on it as much as I used to be because I don't thankfully need to be anymore. Uh but yeah, so and and I'm not Jewish, I'm a Christian. Uh I am really bothered by the fact that so many people are unwilling to speak up about so obvious issues, things if they're very black and white, right and wrong. And I am a big believer that if we don't talk about it, we condone it. And society, I think, is starting to change for the worse because of that. And I think it it part of it is social media and you know what used to be, we used to have communities that were tighter and people who were of different economic status and different religions and different, you know, were forced to see one another more on a day-to-day basis. We actually don't do as much of that now. As so-called interconnected as we are, we're not as interconnected as a as communities. And I think that's made it worse. And then you get social media where people can group themselves into groups very easily, and they get in these bubbles that's just a problem. And so you have that coupled with a lot of us afraid to do or say anything because oh my God, what if it hurts my career or whatever? Um, I just I feel very strongly that we we gotta stop it because it's it's gonna get worse, not better, if we don't start speaking up more about what we truly think is right and wrong. And you know what? I have two boys. I don't want them growing up in a world that's getting even worse. I need the world to get better for them, not worse.

SPEAKER_00

So for for lawyers who maybe are new to building their own practice, um, their own book of business, and are trying to figure out how do I start showing up, let's say on LinkedIn, um, you know, with with showing up authentically, figuring out what that even means, whether they're again gonna talk about something like anti-Semitism or just like, hey, this is my story, this is how I came, this is what my life is like, this is where I come from. Um do you tell it's gonna be different, I'm sure, for every person, but how do you guide clients, lawyers, to think about how personal to get um in in terms of just the business development part and the reputation part and the values piece and knowing what you stand for and recognizing the kind of practice that you'll be proud to build versus one that will maybe be really lucrative but will feel it really gross inside.

SPEAKER_03

So there's two parts to that question, really. Um, and and the first part you didn't ask, but I think it comes first. So I'm gonna answer that one first. I, when people are getting started on LinkedIn or any social media, and if most of us lawyers really are bad about like we feel like we shouldn't get out there and we don't want to say too much, and we, you know, it feels weird. And I get it because it was that was me initially. And I started this business and I had to because okay, I have an online business now. I have to do this to get clients. So I actually don't recommend initially, if you've never really posted or you've rarely posted, to start by posting. I tell my clients to first start by interacting with people. Think of it as a network because it LinkedIn wants to be a place where you network to. They are designed for that. They want to be known as that, that is part of their DNA. So utilize it to your benefit. Find like-minded people, people you're if you find interesting personally, professionally, industry-wise, all of the above. Follow them, start looking at their stuff and don't just like, but actually comment. Start there, start interacting. Like, so if you were talking, if somebody was talking about the thing they posted about to you at a networking event face to face, what would you say to them? Put that in the comment. That gives people, if they do that for a couple of months, usually enough courage and confidence because they've started to talk about things, they've started to see where their opinions are, they started to see what gets them excited and motivated to talk about, to start posting. So then when you start posting, you know, and I've I have numerous episodes of my own, my podcast on this, but first sit down and figure out well, what are my my content pillars? Like what do I actually want to be talking about? You don't have to talk about everything. And you don't have to get super personal if you don't feel comfortable getting super personal. Most of the people I know who get more personal, and I do sometimes, but not always, but sometimes it's not immediate. It comes over time after they start in areas where they feel comfortable. So figure out what do I feel comfortable about talking about initially. And I do counsel my clients to you don't have to just talk about the law, however. Like you can talk about something that's important within the industry that you get excited and geeked up about if that's what you want to talk about. You can talk about a cause that's important to you. You can talk about like do something that also makes you look human, not just like a lawyer. But it doesn't have to be super personal. And start there and just get regular with it and get comfortable with it and understand that once you get started and get going for a while, it's gonna morph. It always does. You're gonna find new things to talk about, you're gonna drop pillars you didn't care about, you're gonna, it's gonna change over time, and that's completely to be expected and more fun, honestly.

SPEAKER_00

How do you work with clients to understand and and incorporate understand how important self-care is in in their success? And and you have a program, I think, called Success Without Sacrifice.

SPEAKER_03

So that's my newsletter. Um that is my newsletter. My my my coaching is next level coaching, but um all of my coaching, even business coaching, starts with a human being. Like we we fig I figure out who they are, what's most important to them. We do talk about their other, like I ask questions about other things. Like we don't just keep it business because they're a whole person. And so I think some of it is just the way I structure my coaching. It helps open them up to the idea of okay, I can't just compartmentalize these things. It's all one life. And they all do interconnect and impact. And they learn over time, okay, well, that means self-care is really important. And they know every every lawyer knows self-care is important. The problem is they still don't prioritize it or they say it's important.

SPEAKER_00

But we think we can keep putting it.

SPEAKER_03

And yeah, I I do think that I think health coaches are some of the problem here, but I think I think we have this warped idea of what self-care is. It only means, and it has to mean, you know, exercising a certain amount, eating a certain way, getting a certain amount of sleep, and all of those things are definitely important. But I come at it from a mindset stance. You actually have to have the mindset of, okay, I need to make sure I'm fully taken care of first so that I can show up as my best, because ultimately I want to excel and do like every lawyer I've ever known has excellence, excelling, doing their best, something, service, something that is a value like that. And you can't fulfill that value if you're not taking good care of yourself. So there's a mindset shift that has to happen. And that's a lot of where I come at it from is over time asking the right questions to dig in, to figure out what is their mindset around it. What do we need to kind of work out? Where do they may maybe need or want to change some of that so that they can start creating better habits? And I have like a self-care challenge that is designed to open people's eyes up to the simplicity of self-care and how it can be like when I was crazy busy in my law practice and working late nights and weekends that for three months out of the end of the every year. Did I get as much sleep? No. Did I eat as well? No. Did I have time for major, you know, working out? No. But I felt good because I knew I was doing the little things that I could. And I knew that this was a shortened time period that was very, you know, and that I would get back to my regular stuff. So like I try to think of self-care as far as like the exercise piece is movement. It's not just exercise. I think of, you know, little things that you can do for yourself. I realized, like when my kids were young, and there's this age where you're carting them everywhere and you feel like you're nothing but a chauffeur. And a lot of parents complain about that. And I was like, I don't want to complain about that. This is time with my kids in the car. And so that became time where I would let them pick songs and we would chat and I would find out. And it is amazing what children will share with you in a car. It's like this cone of like, I will tell you everything about my day. You get out of the car, they won't say anything anymore. But in the car, they'll say everything. So I utilized that. To me, that was self-care. It was connection time with my kids. So I reframed a lot of things. And it's simpler than you think when you think in those terms. There are little things you can do even when you're busier, even when things aren't going as well, that can really help you feel energized enough and sustained enough to get through those tougher times.

SPEAKER_00

Amazing. Is there anything? It's so true. And I mean, I've done some of the same, I frame it as movement. You know, I don't I I do sometimes still think of something as exercise if I'm really doing a whole thing, but I I move all day long. And just knowing that that like that's one of my you know pillars, and that's one of things that I need to feel my best and to perform my best. So I move. And that might mean like a 30-second dance party. That might mean I'm I'm learning to juggle. And I don't think I could do that one. You start somewhere. It starts with I'm doing it with balls and with scarves. Scarves are easier, but they're just they're different. But, anyways, the point is just do something and learn what your brain needs, your body needs, and and that it doesn't have to be it, it doesn't only count if it's 30 minutes. 30 seconds here, you know, a few times a day of whatever it is matters. And then, you know, when you start with 30 seconds, you might just then go, oh, this actually was super easy. Maybe I'll just like do two more minutes.

SPEAKER_03

You know, I used to do stupid stuff like when things were really busy. Every time I went to the bathroom, I'd do 30 squats. Every time I'd like it's simple, it took an extra minute of my time, so why not?

SPEAKER_00

I I start my day doing all sorts of things that I'm that I'm just stacking with whatever I would be doing, anyways. I brush my teeth every morning. So I I'll do um uh calf raises while I brush my teeth. Because why not?

SPEAKER_03

And you're just sitting there brushing your teeth anyway, right? Yeah, no, that is started my care. Right. Acts of self-care with everyday things. That is one of the things that I teach in my self-care challenge, actually.

SPEAKER_00

Lovely. Well, and this is the thing, you know, people would have no idea that you most of the time when I'm on calls, I've got like a strap like this. I'm doing something around my legs, I'm doing something with my hands, I'm doing this sort of a thing. Like I'm doing stuff all day long because that's what I know I need to be my best. And you know, we all need something different, but you just find your little things to boost you a little or a lot. And you start small, um, but it it's even especially on your your, I think, especially on the days when you just feel you start the day and you're just like, how am I gonna get through this? If you just have a couple little things, you know, to help you get through stages.

SPEAKER_03

Things to look forward to to like make it fun. I always had a special tea. I love jasmine, white jasmine tea, mostly because I love the smell. It just smells fabulous to me. So I always had it in my office. And anytime I was really stressed or felt like it was a harder deal that we were trying to get closed, it was just longer days. I always had a time where I would just take that time, go make the tea, have a five minutes to myself, and it was like, oh, this was you know awesome, you know, and it would help motivate me for the rest of the day.

SPEAKER_00

So I love that. And I I, you know, I think it can even be so hard for us to feel like we have five minutes to quote unquote spare because we it it I think we tend to feel like everything's urgent and there's no time to spare, and most things are actually not urgent, or they're urgent but not priorities, and there's a difference. Of course, there's a huge difference, and we like who teaches us about that? Yeah, okay. Anything anything you like to cover that we haven't. Oh gosh, I feel like we've covered almost everything.

SPEAKER_03

You know, I I just think the biggest thing I like message I like to leave people with is you really do have a choice. My husband was right. There are choices in this world, and a lot of a lot of it has to do with do you see the fact that you have more choices? Are you willing to be open enough to step back and go, you know what? They may not be perfect, but I have choices and I'm willing to accept that and start making actual decisions for myself. Because what I see a lot of people, especially lawyers, doing is they follow the path they think they're supposed to follow. It's a bunch of shoulds. And they they also don't like the fact that there are trade-offs, but the fact is there will be trade-offs to every choice that you have, every single one. And the key is trying to figure out which trade-offs am I more okay with now, given the choices that I have in the life that I'm living now. And if you're willing to go there and accept that you're gonna make some trade-offs, you're gonna end up a lot better. Because when you don't admit that there's trade-offs, when you don't want to see that there's many choices, choices get made for you and you make bigger trade-offs than you realize.

SPEAKER_00

You do not want other people making your decisions. No.

SPEAKER_03

No.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you so much, Heather. This was fun. This was really thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_03

I was uh really looking forward to it. I'm glad we got to do it.

SPEAKER_00

Good. Me too. Thanks for listening. I hope you got a ton of value from this conversation, and that you will check out the links in the description to learn more about the guest and the wellness esquire. And I hope you take even just one minute to do something for yourself today. Maybe right now. Drink more water, say no, call a friend, do something that makes you happy, have a 30 second dance party, find something to make you laugh. Also, be sure to subscribe and send the podcast to a colleague. And if we're not yet connected on LinkedIn, please fix that. I'd love to know you. See you next time.

Head Shot

Ariella Cohen Coleman

Host